Talk:Germans

New World Map Image, New Zealand

Hi, i think we need a new world map image since there are actually more than 10,000 people of German descent in New Zealand- the real figure according to the New Zealand government is some 200,000.

Ethnic Germans after WWI

@Hildeoc: You have been reverted by two different editors, please stop your edit warring. There are many situations in which somebody may be called an "ethnic German", not only because there place of residence was ceded to another country in Versailles. Rsk6400 (talk) 06:35, 26 June 2023 (UTC)

@Rsk6400, Andrew Lancaster: As I tried to show by invoking several sources, "person of German extraction and inherited non-German nationality" is the main connotation of the term in question. As this redirects here, how would you include it then? At any rate, it has to be somehow included as per WP:R#PLA. Hildeoc (talk) 10:51, 26 June 2023 (UTC)

PS: Confer also, e.g.,

• here: "The Federal Expellees Act defines ethnic German resettlers as ethnic Germans who left the republics of the former Soviet Union after 31 December 1992 in the framework of an admission procedure and established their permanent residence in Germany within six months in line with applicable law." or
• here: "Although immigrants, principally ethnic Germans, continued to drift in from the east, their numbers were overshadowed by a mass desertion of some two million people from East Germany."

Hildeoc (talk) 10:57, 26 June 2023 (UTC)

Hildeoc I am not sure, but perhaps you misunderstood the concern, which is more about the wording. The term "ethnic German" can imply different things in different contexts, but even though it is often used in the context of people who are not German citizens, it would also generally be understood to include all or most German citizens. At first sight I think your latest more careful edit has taken more account of the need for clarity. In general though, for cases where there is a wording concern, it can be quicker to post an explanation on the talk page, because it is sometimes difficult to communicate using edsums. --Andrew Lancaster (talk) 14:20, 26 June 2023 (UTC)

Thank you very much for providing this helpful insight! Best, Hildeoc (talk) 14:22, 26 June 2023 (UTC)

PS: Indeed, I now tried to state the context more precisely appearing most notable to me in this particular respect; though I certainly would not at all mind if someone came up with a broader definition either in the lead or a corresponding (separate) paragraph. Hildeoc (talk) 14:29, 26 June 2023 (UTC)

I agree, but I removed the bold face from "ethnic Germans". Although the term redirects here, the Germans outside Germany are not the only "ethnic Germans". Rsk6400 (talk) 15:53, 29 June 2023 (UTC)

@Hildeoc: The addition of "ethnic Germans" is tautological. Since the section is not about ethnic Germans, it is also confusing for readers who might have come here following the redirect from ethnic Germans. BTW: There is something like WP:ONUS and WP:EW. Rsk6400 (talk) 07:14, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

@Rsk6400: But WP:R#PLA is clear, so why have a redirect whose lemma is not even included? That is really confusing for readers, isn't it? It just doesn't make sense that way. Hildeoc (talk) 15:26, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

It depends what others think, and also what sources say, but I can imagine this search term fitting in the first sentence. We are already noting that the term is sometimes used to refer to people of German descent. (Actually we are also saying that it is used to refer to German speakers which seems wrong to me, at least in modern contexts.)--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 18:07, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

Hildeoc, I suppose that people searching for "ethnic Germans" want to learn something about German culture, language, or similar. These questions are answered by the whole article, so IMHO to have the term in bold in one section would be confusing.

Andrew Lancaster, how would you suggest to include the term in the first sentence ? One of the problems I have with the term is that I don't know what it means. I am German, living Germany and I never hear or read the possible German equivalents applied to people like me - "Volksdeutsche" is used in historical context for the German diaspora, while "ethnische Deutsche" or "Ethno-Deutsche" is simply not in use. Rsk6400 (talk) 19:09, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

True. Does that not imply that there should be a separate article for that concept? Perhaps a can of worms! But I guess this type of question will come up again. --Andrew Lancaster (talk) 21:33, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

No, I don't think so. Germanness is a broad concept. Some time ago I spent some time looking for sources on that concept, but I didn't find enough for a serious overhaul of the "Identity" section, where maybe the relationship between Germanness and ethnicity could be treated more extensively. Rsk6400 (talk) 09:09, 25 November 2023 (UTC)

OK, but what do we do for people seeking an article about the concept of "ethnic Germans". The obvious two choices are that we mention something about it here, including something in the lead, or else we consider it a sperate concept to being German (for example when the term is used to refer to people emigrant communities) and then maybe it needs another article?--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 09:37, 25 November 2023 (UTC)

The only solution I can imagine is changing the current redirect ethnic Germans into a disambiguation page. Something like "The term e.G. may refer to

• historical minorities in Europe, see Volksdeutsche
• the German diaspora
• a historical concept of Germanness, now considered outdated or racist, see Germans#Identity."

I see a big practical problem: E.G. is linked by some 100 articles, we'd have to check all of them. Rsk6400 (talk) 13:52, 25 November 2023 (UTC)

In principle WP is never finished and everything which moves towards a better WP is ok, but I agree it might be a big call. I am wondering whether any of the more specialized sub communities such as those who work on dab issues might be better at this type of decision.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 14:33, 25 November 2023 (UTC)

Maybe a crazy idea but what about having articles specifically about ethnic Germans during the specific periods when this term was important such as after WW1 and after the cold war? Ethnic Gemans could be a dab, instead of coming here.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 10:35, 7 December 2023 (UTC)

Diaspora and ancestry population estimate

BauhausFan89, in this edit you added a diaspora and ancestry population estimate of 68 million, sourced to this, which contains no such figure (or indeed any figures). Judging by the URL, it is also a wiki, which means it's not a reliable source. Cordless Larry (talk) 18:57, 12 February 2024 (UTC)

I am concerned about the state of the international numbers in the infobox. It is obviously not a good thing to have a table where nearly ever number is put in doubt by a scond number which is completely different! I can not think of any good faith reason for doing this. These are "apples and pears" numbers and there is no quick and easy way for readers to assess the different ways they are being estimated. If there is not simple way yo clean this up I would prefer removing these numbers. At the moment the information looks deliberately misleading. Lists of estimated numbers of citizens is probably something we can achieve but hand waving about people who have some other sort of German identity seems undoable in such a table.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 07:52, 9 March 2024 (UTC)

World Map of German descent

In all other major national ethnic gropus there is a world map. can I insert one here? BauhausFan89 (talk) 14:09, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

The map was removed after discussion on the talk page. I'm afraid I don't remember where the discussion has been archived. Rsk6400 (talk) 14:19, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

I suggest removing the Geographic distribution section and the world map. The information is sourced and interpreted in an eccentric and misleading manner. By using a coloring scheme based on absolute numbers the largest counstries in the world automatically have a tendency to shower dark colours. We also need a clear and agreed methodology about what definition of German is being used. That method, and the sources would need to be clear. These are very straightforward and fundamental problems.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 07:57, 9 March 2024 (UTC)

@BauhausFan89: Feel free to search the archives for the discussion I mentioned above or to add to this discussion using arguments based on RS and WP policies, but please remember that WP is a collaborative effort, meaning you should not add the map by way of edit warring. Rsk6400 (talk) 08:25, 9 March 2024 (UTC)

How to handle total population in text

The final sentence of the first paragraph currently states:

Estimates on the total number of Germans in the world range from 100 to 150 million, most of whom live in Germany.

The ref quote states:

The Germans live in Central Europe, mostly in Germany... Estimates of the total number of Germans in the world range from 100 million to 150 million, depending on how German is defined, but it is probably more appropriate to accept the lower figure.

Here's the thing: the population of Germany is given in the side bar as 72,569,978, meaning that the upper estimate of 150 million would imply that slightly less than half of Germans live in Germany. The source states that the lower estimate of 100 million is "probably" more accurate, which weighs in favor of the most of whom live Germany clause, but it's still quite confusing. Is anyone aware of additional sources that might help us arrive at a more definitive figure and therefore less contradictory language? Generalrelative (talk) 02:28, 11 March 2024 (UTC)