Wikipedia talk:Proposed deletion

Why I think article creators shouldn't be able to take down prods.

This editor has just gone and created[1] about 100 unreferenced articles. I tried prodding a few, but he or she took them down. How do we know these are notable? How do we know this actually happened?...William 18:51, 24 November 2013 (UTC)

The editor answered[2] an inquiry I made at his talk page. They wrote- 'I've taken them from List of United Kingdom by-elections (1868–85)'. After I told them that would violate WP:CIRCULAR. Then came this reply= 'That would be true if I was citing the page. I'm not.' But that's his source. May I also add, he put unreferenced tags up on two of the three articles I PRODed. Any suggestions what to do next? A massive AFD?...William 19:17, 24 November 2013 (UTC)

Proposed deletions, unlike speedy deletions, can be proposed for just about any reason. It is therefor important that they should be taken down for any reason by anyone. The AfD will be lost as these are all actual by-elections and therefor will be seen to be notable, and the references will be found soon enough. JASpencer (talk) 19:21, 24 November 2013 (UTC)

Merely being unreferenced is not a valid reason to delete something. Being unverifiable is a valid reason, but that requires that there are no suitable sources for the information in question, not just that the article doesn't cite any. In this case it's very clear that there are sources available for this information (such as, say, these) so any AfD would have no chance of succeeding. Hut 8.5 21:05, 24 November 2013 (UTC)

No opinion on the specific case mentioned. On the topic about article creators taking down PRODs on articles they created, I have no problem with it. PROD means to me an "unopposed deletion" and if someone opposes it, then we go to AFD. The mechanism is in place.--Paul McDonald (talk) 21:40, 24 November 2013 (UTC)

In my opinion it's already too easy to delete an article through PROD. Many articles receive no review other than the nominator and the admin who closes the PROD, and the admin doesn't actually have any formal responsibility to review the proposed deletion. I spent a few months reviewing PRODded articles daily and I contested about 20% of the proposals as invalid. Let's not throw up more road blocks. Pburka (talk) 21:49, 24 November 2013 (UTC)

I was on PROD patrol a few years ago and it was far higher than 20% that I took down - so at least things have improved since then. JASpencer (talk) 22:13, 26 November 2013 (UTC)

In the specific case, the list article is referenced to F. W. S. Craig's compendium on the subject. The need to repeat the citation in each article is at most a technicality of wiki process which contributes little to actual wp:V. This doesn't strike me as a great reason to hit the delete switch. LeadSongDog come howl! 22:25, 24 February 2014 (UTC)

Proposed deletions are for articles where nobody (including the article creator) has a good faith objection to deletion. They are meant to be uncontroversial and a way to circumvent our usual deletion processes when a deletion discussion isn't necessary, but an article doesn't meet speedy deletion criteria. Think of a PROD as halfway between AfD and CSD. If the article creator was not allowed to object to a PROD, it would go against the original purpose of the deletion method.

That's not to say that anyone can object for any reason whatsoever. There have been instances (I've witnessed them myself) where a disruptive editor removes the proposed deletion tags from a massive number of articles with no explanation and without discretion, simply as a form of vandalism. These editors were shown to be vandalism-only accounts so clearly there was no good faith in the objections. In those cases, the proposed deletion tags were restored and the deletion process was allowed to continue without interruption.

If there is a case where someone creates 100 new articles that you feel don't meet inclusion criteria, there are three options. Propose them for deletion (which cannot stand if the author objects), find speedy deletion criteria that apply to the articles and tag them (which only works if the articles meet those criteria) or nominate them for deletion per AfD. If you have a large number of related articles that have the same problem, you can propose a single AfD discussion which encompasses them all. Yes, it requires work on your part, but you're also undoing the work that another editor has put into creating those articles in the first place, so it's only fair. -- Atama頭 22:40, 24 February 2014 (UTC)

I know this is an older discussion, but I feel compelled to respond. The WP:PROD policy states in part, "PROD must only be used if no opposition is to be expected." The same policy later states, "Even after it has been deleted, a PRODed article can be restored by anybody through an automated request for undeletion." To sum this up, PROD is for when there is no opposition for deletion. If one editor opposes, then generally it should go to deletion review for a discussion. If we did not allow article creators to object to a PROD, then they would likely just request the article be restored later. That seems very clumsy to me.--Paul McDonald (talk) 21:14, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

I think the instance mentioned at the top of this section is a good example of why WP:PROD does allow deprods by anyone. WP:PROD is designed and intended only for abandoned pushovers; it's not for anything any page editor (or a reader) is still even the slightest bit interested in, regardless of how baseless the page or its champion is. That's why prods evaporate at the slightest touch: Even a deprod without a reason is still its own authority. It's even one of the few things (maybe the only thing) that policy allows even without good faith: see Wikipedia:Proposed deletion#Objecting. A deletion request with no strict criteria, which the target editor can object to but can't remove, already exists: That's Wikipedia:Articles for deletion. And if an unfair/misleading prod couldn't be contested by contributors, and it's a new or less-watched page that only has the attention of the contributors so far, how do those who are interested in the page alert others to come unprod a deserving page, except by possibly-unwelcome Wikipedia:Canvassing, before a busy admin comes across a facially-reasonable (but baseless) prod summary and deletes? --Closeapple (talk) 10:30, 2 February 2015 (UTC)

@WilliamJE: - this is not a PROD issue, this is an editor issue - if @JASpencer: continues to (disruptively) create masses of unreferenced or poorly referenced articles then a topic ban might be suitable. GiantSnowman 10:32, 2 February 2015 (UTC)

Parilaimentary by-elections are inherently notable topics and the articles can grow. The very basic articles add more factual content on these topics than Wikipedia had before. Wikipedia is never finished. JASpencer (talk) 18:19, 6 February 2015 (UTC)

In general I agree with the above points. PROD is intended for completely non-controversial deletions. It also has the added advantage that it can serve as a prod (pun intended) to the creator or other interested editors to fix what might otherwise be a fatal flaw without the hassle of going to AfD. However, if I may stray from the narrow topic to the broader issue of editors creating unsourced articles; that is something I have longstanding issues with. IMHO the same rules that govern BLPs should apply to all articles. Which is to say that there should not be articles without sources, period. This is supposed to be an encyclopedia. The existence, and tolerance for unsourced articles, severely undermines the credibility of that claim. The burden for providing at least some source on a new article rests squarely with the articles principal author. If an editor is habitually creating unsourced articles I think that is something that after informal attempts at correction, could justify a formal warning and eventually a trip to ANI if remonstration fails. -Ad Orientem (talk) 18:49, 6 February 2015 (UTC)

In this case it has been a while (about 18 months I think) since I created unsourced articles. I've usually added Leigh Reyment. But if there is going to be a general fatwah against unsourced articles then this should be a policy and that should start with creating an automatic deletion criteria (if there are a large number of deletions to a user then that would be an appropriate case for bringing this sort of case forward). JASpencer (talk)

I appreciate that you are being more careful about unsourced articles. With respect to fatwahs (an unfortunate choice of words), I would like to see clarification and stronger wording on the subject. But IMO existing policy and guidelines pretty much preclude unsourced articles. I don't know how you can create an article without sources that is compliant with WP:V and WP:CITE. Persistently ignoring those guidelines, especially after appropriate counseling and or warnings, could be seen as a form of disruptive editing. In a very extreme case, and I am not pointing any fingers here, I could see myself supporting a topic ban from creating new articles if someone just thumbed their nose and kept doing it over and over again. -Ad Orientem (talk) 18:40, 7 February 2015 (UTC)

Notifying creators

I've lately seen several situations in which the prodding editor notified the page's creator, even though it was created as a redirect. For example, Czar created Review of Education as a redirect, someone else converted it into a stub, and when a third editor prodded it, Czar was notified, but the converting editor wasn't. As far as I'm seeing, WP:PROD doesn't address this situation at all. Should we add anything reminding editors to notify the right person? Would it even be helpful? In this instance, the prod was added via Twinkle, so I'll see if I can ask a similar question at a Twinkle-related talk page. Nyttend (talk) 18:05, 2 February 2015 (UTC)

The same problem can occur with AfDs, and I don't think a particularly good solution has been found. Really, every major contributor to the page should be notified, which presumably includes the creator, but there isn't a particularly good way to identify them using the automated tools that send the creator notifications. Monty₈₄₅ 22:12, 2 February 2015 (UTC)

Module:RfD

I1m sorry this is not the right place to put this I am sure but I don't know how to list it. The module is fully protected and its talk page is fully protected so I cant discuss it with the creator. Which is stupid, but presumably a deliberate intent by the creator, so WP:AGF tends to wane. I tried listing at WP:CSD and WP:PROD but I can't, because the page is fully protected, so it won't let me leave a message saying I hav

This is nonsense. It is a new module that is entirely unused, and actually is incorrect in many ways. The way to list something at WP:RFD is to list it at WP:RFD, and the regulars of which I am one are very forgiving if people make some techinical mistake, we take things on sentiment and then go and check the facts, we don't go on whether you're a kestrel or a knave. There is simply no need for this and it is getting in the way because it was created by someone who has never been at WP:RFD, never sought consensus for it to be created. Entirely unnecessary and blocking searches by its presence.

Delete it please Si Trew (talk) 21:15, 18 April 2015 (UTC)

Seriously, what's your problem? Everything you've said is false. See also Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Module:RfD, Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Module:RfD, and Template talk:Rfd#It's useless I tried to PROD it but it is 'fullly protected' we don't need it. I'm entitled to my opinion. Jackmcbarn (talk) 21:16, 18 April 2015 (UTC)

I added the MfD notice to the doc page, so it appears above the module. Further discussion should take place at MFD.--JohnBlackburne^words_deeds 21:52, 18 April 2015 (UTC)

Why does this template need to be substituted?

Why not just "prod", rather than "subst:prod"? What's the justification for template substitution here? A "prod" template is never permanent; one way or the the other, it's gone in a week. There's no performance requirement for this template. Expanding it early just confuses its removal when necessary. --John Nagle (talk) 18:24, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

Isn't the point of substituting it so that it has the dates of when it was placed and when it expires? If it wasn't substituted, I think the date and time it was placed would have to be a parameter, which would make it more confusing to use. If someone supplied the wrong date or time, then it might look like the prod had expired when really it hadn't been in place for 7 days yet. Calathan (talk) 18:48, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

Yes, if you don't subst it, it displays "This template must be substituted." and puts the page in Category:Proposed deletions needing attention; but if you do subst it, what you get is the {{Proposed deletion/dated}} template with two parameters: |concern= is whatever you put in the |concern=, |reason= or first unnamed parameter; and |timestamp= is set to the value of {{CURRENTTIMESTAMP}} at the moment of saving the page. --Redrose64 (talk) 19:18, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

Clarified article text

In order to make what I hope are improvements to understanding of this article, I have slightly modified the lede, and added a second 'graph summarizing the main restrictions on using PROD. Eaglizard (talk) 14:24, 22 July 2015 (UTC)

I removed the bit about never using PROD simultaneously with speedy deletion. The previous version said nothing about this; and there are times when both may apply. --Redrose64 (talk) 14:35, 22 July 2015 (UTC)

I made some additional changes. Prod is no quicker than AFD, they both run 7 days. Also I changed where it call the AFD process "deletion review". WP:Deletion review is a completely different process that takes place after a deletion discussion has taken place or a page has been deleted via CSD. -- GB fan 18:06, 22 July 2015 (UTC)

Apparently prodded by mistake — can it be prodded again?

A user added a PROD template to the article Mathias Eklöf as unsourced in September 2015, pretty much immediately after creation, citing WP:BLPPROD.[3] That was apparently a mistake or perhaps an edit conflict, as the same user removed the PROD one minute later with the edit summary "now sourced". (I guess it's an illustration of why new articles had better not be tagged for deletion immediately.) The article actually has seven references, though none of them impressive as far as notability. I think this article is a natural for PROD per CSD A7, since I don't see how being CEO of Yell.ru is a WP-compliant claim to notability. (Yell.ru itself doesn't have a Wikipedia article.) It seems excessively bureaucratic that the previous mistaken and withdrawn PROD should force me to take the article to AfD instead (where it will no doubt languish without input). But I suppose it can't be helped? Bishonen | talk 09:59, 6 October 2015 (UTC).